Capital campaigns have a reputation problem. They're seen as the domain of large institutions - universities, hospitals, legacy organizations with deep-pocketed donor bases and full development departments. For smaller nonprofits, the assumption is often: that's not for us.
New research says otherwise.
In a recent episode of 501(c) Drop, BetterUnite Co-founder Leya Simmons sat down with Steven Shattuck, Director of Engagement & Technology at Capital Campaign Pro, to dig into the 2026 State of Capital Campaigns Benchmark Report. The study draws on data from nearly 700 organizations across North America and represents one of the only empirical, practitioner-grounded looks at how capital campaigns actually perform.
What follows are the findings worth paying attention to.
The headline number from the 2026 report: satisfaction rates are holding above 95%, and average goal attainment has exceeded 100% every single year the study has been conducted.
That's not a fluke. It's a consistent pattern across three years of data, and it held even during periods of economic uncertainty, inflation, and sector-wide headwinds.
"I keep waiting to hear all those horror stories," Shattuck said. "But it just hasn't happened."
Part of the explanation may be structural. Capital campaigns tend to rely on a concentrated group of major donors - and right now, wealth at the top is relatively insulated from broader economic volatility. That's not a comfortable fact for the sector to sit with, but it's a real one, and it points toward why campaigns continue to perform even when conditions feel shaky.
One of the most clarifying data points from the 2026 report: 72% of goal attainment comes from the top 20 gifts.
That number is close to the Pareto principle (80/20), but it's specific enough to be actionable. If you're planning a $5 million campaign, you're probably looking at a $1 million lead gift, a handful of six-figure gifts, and then a broader base filling out the rest. The campaign is, at its core, a major gift effort.
This doesn't mean mid-level and community giving don't matter. But it does mean the central question for any organization considering a campaign is: Do we have people in our orbit who could give at that level? If the answer is yes - or even maybe - that's where the work starts.
This may be the most important finding in the report for the majority of nonprofits listening.
Shattuck sorted the nearly 700 responses by annual revenue and isolated the organizations under $1 million in annual budget. The results: success rates of 95-96%, goal attainment over 100%, and typical campaign sizes of $2-3 million.
Nearly identical to the broader cohort - except for the size of the numbers.
"The commas are the same," Shattuck said. "That first number is just a little smaller."
In several areas, small shops actually outperformed their larger peers. Executive directors and board members at smaller organizations tend to be more personally engaged in fundraising - often because they're founders or deeply mission-driven from the start. And because many of these campaigns were their first, organizations were building infrastructure (CRMs, gift acceptance policies, moves management systems) for the first time, rather than upgrading what already existed.
The ripple effect: organizations that complete a $2-3 million campaign frequently cross the $1 million annual revenue threshold they started below. The campaign doesn't just fund the project. It levels up the organization.
One of the most persistent fears around capital campaigns is donor fatigue: that asking for a major campaign gift will cannibalize the annual fund.
The data doesn't support this. A vast majority of organizations in the study saw their annual fund grow during and after the campaign.
Shattuck offered several reasons. First, campaigns force organizations to build major gift infrastructure that didn't exist before - prospect research, donor stewardship systems, a more disciplined ask culture. Those systems benefit every fundraising effort, not just the campaign.
Second, campaigns are an upgrading exercise. A donor who has given $500 a year for a decade might have the capacity for a six-figure campaign gift. When they give it, they don't slingshot back. Their annual giving level tends to increase and stay elevated.
Third, the act of asking donors for both their campaign gift and their annual fund gift simultaneously, rather than treating them as mutually exclusive, tends to strengthen rather than strain the relationship. "It can actually be a little weird for a donor to not be asked for both," Shattuck noted.
The feasibility study is technically optional. That's exactly why Shattuck flags it.
Organizations that skipped the feasibility study - or conducted it internally rather than with a third-party interviewer - showed meaningful differences in campaign outcomes, particularly in length. Campaigns without proper feasibility work tended to drag on longer, often because the goal hadn't been stress-tested before launch.
The purpose of a feasibility study isn't just to validate your goal. It's to begin the solicitation process. Talking to potential lead donors, socializing the vision, gathering real feedback - this is, as Shattuck put it, step zero of the ask. The old adage applies: ask for advice, get money.
Skipping it means starting without that groundwork. And if you hit 50% of a $10 million goal and stall, there's very little a consultant - or anyone - can do at that point. "Skip at your own risk," Shattuck said.
There's never a perfect time to launch a capital campaign. The data makes this case clearly: roughly 70-80% of organizations in the study did not pause their campaigns during periods of economic stress - including the pandemic and the inflation spike of 2022-23.
And waiting has a concrete cost: inflation. Most capital campaigns include a construction or facilities component, and construction costs don't hold still. A goal set at $5 million today may need to be $6 million in two years - for the exact same project.
There's also the internal timeline to factor in. The three to twelve months of pre-campaign work - developing a case for support, completing a feasibility study, identifying and cultivating lead donors - happens before a single gift is solicited. Starting now doesn't mean asking now. It means you're asking on schedule.
"Quiet phase" is a misnomer worth unpacking. You can't hide a construction project. People will know something is happening.
What stays quiet is the goal number and the attainment. The classic fundraising thermometer shouldn't go up on your website at $0. It should go up when you're at 70-75% - because that's when public momentum becomes a closing tool, not a liability.
Shattuck recommends securing 70-80% of goal attainment before going public. This protects the campaign's credibility and the relationship with your closest supporters. Your lead donors shouldn't find out about your big vision from your website. They should have been involved before any public announcement was made.
"If you go public before bringing in those very close supporters, you might alienate them," Shattuck said. "And that's exactly the group you can't afford to lose."
Shattuck's concrete guidance for organizations in the consideration phase:
Start with your depth chart. Can you name 40-50 people who have meaningful affinity for your mission and some capacity to give at a significant level? That list - not the dollar amounts, not the database size - is your starting point.
Look at your loyal donors first. A donor who has given $100 a year for five or more years and volunteers, serves on a committee, or gives monthly is more significant than someone who made a large gift once a decade ago. Engagement signals matter more than gift history.
Don't decide for the donor. If you assume someone can't give and never ask, you're right. Ask, and you at least have a chance.
If your major gift infrastructure is thin, start there. A major gift program can transition directly and smoothly into campaign work. It doesn't have to be a separate phase with a hard stop between them.
Transcript Recording:
Leya Simmons (00:00)
Hello, welcome to today's 501 C drop. I'm Leah Simmons and I'm the CEO and co-founder of Better Unite. Welcome. I am really thrilled. I think I say this every week. I'm really thrilled about today's topic, but this one uniquely, I think we're talking about capital campaigns and some new research that's come out about capital campaigns and I'm speaking with the capital campaign pro himself, Steven Shattuck and their new research about
capital campaigns and what I think happens is that a lot of smaller nonprofits tend to view capital campaigns as completely something that's out of their reach and I think that today's episode might shift that narrative just a little bit. as I said today my guest is Steve Shattuck as you can see right here. Hi Steve. I'm sorry I said Steve and I know it's Steven I don't know why.
Steven (00:53)
Hey!
Okay, I
don't actually care.
Leya Simmons (00:59)
Okay,
good. Really easy going guy here. So Stephen is the Director of Engagement and Technology at Capital Campaign Pro. And if you don't know Capital Campaign Pro, they are doing some of the most rigorous practitioner grounded research that's happening in the space right now. And Stephen works directly with the data behind their annual State of Capital Campaigns benchmark report. And he's here today to walk us through
everything, maybe not everything, but a whole lot of what the 2026 numbers say. So I'm going to stop my share. Stephen, I'm really thrilled about all of this. I think it's just really fascinating. And I also, like I said, I just know that there's a complete, you know, section of our sector that thinks that capital campaigns are not something that they can pay attention to.
Steven (01:55)
Yeah, definitely. They're scary. you know, with good reason, you know, people are nervous going into them. But, you know, one thing, and I'm sure we'll talk about it, that our research shows is, you know, we've been doing this for like four years, and I keep waiting to hear all those horror stories from people filling out the survey, but it just hasn't happened. Most people, actually, a vast majority of people are very satisfied with their campaigns. So it's a good time to be capital campaigning out there, despite, you know, all the other troubles that the sector is facing.
Leya Simmons (02:23)
There's a lot of headwinds to say it, put it mildly. ⁓ Okay, well, I we dive right in. Is that good with you, Stephen? All right, so for an executive director, a development director, anybody else, even maybe a board president who've never run a capital campaign or they really haven't run one in a while, how would you describe the landscape right now and then how, if you had to compare it to...
Steven (02:25)
Yes.
Okay, let's do it.
Yeah.
Leya Simmons (02:48)
you know, 10 years ago, 2016 or 2019, just pre pandemic, how would they compare?
Steven (02:54)
Yeah, it's a good question. And you kind of you nailed the headline, which is the headwinds. Right. So I think there's kind of a mixed bag in the answer. One is that for as long as we've been researching this and only been three or four years, not a really long time. But the data has been very, very consistent, you know, upwards of a 95 percent sort of satisfaction rate with with campaigns. And the the average goal attainment has been over 100 percent.
in all three or four years we've been recording it. from, you know, I sort of pair the research with my own sort of anecdotal experience working at the agency, which is it's a good time to be doing capital campaigns. And that may seem kind of self-serving, right, coming from a person that is selling consulting services, but that's why we do the research because we kind of want to back it up. And the research is, you know, almost 700 organizations here in North America.
Leya Simmons (03:24)
Wow.
Wow.
Steven (03:53)
very few of our clients are ⁓ represented in that data. So it is kind of a wide swath. ⁓ I think that capital campaigns are somewhat insulated compared to other fundraising disciplines to a lot of the headwinds that nonprofits are facing. And that's not to say that if you're doing a capital campaign, there are no headwinds. are absolutely
But, ⁓ and what I'm about to say, I don't necessarily think is a good thing, but most capital campaigns rely on a small group of large donors. And the wealthy in this country are doing very well right now. So it's common for people to maybe look at those headwinds and the economy and wealth inequality and all those very real issues that we are facing and think,
gosh, maybe it's not a good time to do a capital campaign. But you mentioned the past 10 years, 20 years, that has kind of been the case. Capital campaigns and fundraising in general does tend to weather those shocks to the system. You think of the .net, .com crash, 2008 of course, 2020.
Leya Simmons (04:58)
Yeah.
2008.
Steven (05:16)
Now there are things that belie the data such that it's more dollars from a smaller group of people. But that does sort of point towards major gift fundraising and capital campaigns as being a good ROI activity. So I don't know how sustainable all that is for the sector, right? That's maybe a different conversation. But for now, I say that as an encouragement. If you have a capital need,
If you've got a big vision and critically, if you've got ⁓ a group of core supporters with capacity, absolutely keep your foot on the gas. Don't decide for the donor. If you decide for the donor, you're not going to get anything. But if you ask, you may get a yes, you may get a no, but at least you have made the ask. So the data and then sort of the anecdotal experience, I think, is encouraging to people that are maybe thinking about a capital campaign.
Leya Simmons (06:11)
That makes a lot of sense to me. So it's not helping us with our sector problem around mid and smaller and micro donors, it's pointing to what is actually working, which are those larger donors. So then talk to me a little bit about the report itself. How do you gather the data? And you just mentioned it's, what'd you say, 700 organizations represented? Yeah.
Steven (06:17)
Yeah, right.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, almost 700. Yeah.
Yep. 700 campaigns. And what's kind of fun now is now that we're entering the third report, we're getting people updating their previous survey as they sort of move forward in phases. So they're sort of updating their story. We're actually also getting some people that recently finished a campaign and now are starting a new one, right? Because some organizations, you're kind of always in a capital campaign, right? You think of higher ed or maybe big healthcare.
Leya Simmons (06:45)
Mmm.
Sure.
Steven (06:58)
So that's been fun to see in the data set for as long as we've been doing it. But yeah, to answer your question, when I joined Capital Campaign Pro, one of the first questions I asked was, hey, I kind of want to get more informed about capital campaigns and benchmarks and data. Who does the study? Where can I go to download it? And then the founders were kind of like, I don't think there is one. ⁓ So I said, well, let's do it because we've got this community and it's definitely a void that is out there. ⁓
you know, there really wasn't and still isn't any other kind of report on capital campaigns from sort of an empirical, you know, scientific level. So that's what we did. So we basically just put out a survey, you know, nothing too fancy, ⁓ just saying, hey, if you're in a capital campaign or you're thinking about one or you recently finished one, could you answer, you know, one of these three surveys and tell us how it went and tell us why you did the campaign and how you're sort of preparing for it?
How is it going if you're in one? And then if you recently finished one, know, kind of what were the results? And we got, you know, hundreds of responses in the first year. I think we went from maybe 300 orgs to 500 to now almost 703 years. You know, all shapes and sizes, small shops to your point. There was actually a lot of interesting kind of small shop data. I'll tease that for later, but yeah. And then we, you know, we usually do that Q4 of the year and I kind of spend.
Leya Simmons (08:12)
Wow.
I was wondering
that too, that's a future question.
Steven (08:27)
Yeah, towards the end of the year, know, I'm crunching
the numbers around the holidays and then usually January, February, we release the report and people can go to capitalcampaignpro.com slash research. It's free if you download it, like a salesperson won't call you. That's not why we do it. ⁓ And there's a lot of good stuff in there that we probably won't have time to get to because there's, you know, there's for those three levels or three cohorts.
and different questions for all those. But yeah, that's basically how and sort of why we've been doing it.
Leya Simmons (08:59)
Well, so you've done it for three years now, and what are some of the surprises that you've seen come out? Maybe this year first, but are there other times that you've been surprised by what the data revealed?
Steven (09:10)
Yeah, we were we were sort of surprised by the satisfaction rate and the goal attainment rate. You know. Yeah, over 100 percent, maybe people set their goal too low, which which sort of tracks with what what I sort of experience and what we do with our clients know very often. I think most capital campaign consultants would would probably agree with this, that we're sort of pushing people to to vision bigger. Right. Because if you're going to go through the trouble.
Leya Simmons (09:16)
The goal is that, were shocking to me too, yeah.
Steven (09:39)
you know, three, two, three, five years, all the work, you know, let's let's test the highest goal. And if it comes back lower, that's fine. We can scale back. But, you know, if you start lower, maybe you're leaving a little bit of money on the table. ⁓ But so that was definitely surprising to us. ⁓ There were ⁓ there were some things in the study that, ⁓ you know, surprised us a little bit. One thing that comes to mind, Leah, is that
Leya Simmons (09:52)
Hmm.
Steven (10:08)
when we started the study, we were kind of in the tail end of the pandemic and ⁓ a lot of organizations weren't staffing up and also weren't hiring consultants at maybe the rate we would have assumed. They were sort of low 60th percentile on that metric, but since then, and then our most recent study, that has rebounded to close to 70. So there seems to be maybe...
Leya Simmons (10:27)
huh.
Steven (10:33)
a little bit of an opening up in terms of investing in the organization and the process in terms of staffing up, maybe getting a consultant to help. ⁓ And maybe that was a symptom of just the very tough times that we were sort of going through in 21, 22, and that sort of trickling down to maybe being a little tighter on the budget. ⁓ But I think the biggest thing for us
It maybe wasn't a surprise, but more of like a sort of a myth that we busted is that the annual fund ⁓ is not something that has to be cannibalized in a campaign. think one of the number one questions I get when I'm talking to someone that's thinking about a campaign is what's going to happen to the annual fund? Is it just going to go down and we have to deal with it?
Leya Simmons (11:07)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Steven (11:26)
And
previous to the data, we would say, no, in our work and anecdotally, we don't see that happen very often. But now we sort of have the data to back it up, which is that a vast majority of organizations see growth in the annual fund during and after the campaign. So capital campaigns are great for achieving that big vision, but they also sort of serve as a launching pad for other operations in the organization. Annual fund.
major gift fundraising in general ⁓ well after the campaign. So that was sort of something that was fun to see sector-wide, whereas maybe we had thought before, like, that's a nice outgrowth of our work because we do really good job as consultants, but it seems like most people see that, which is good. We don't mind seeing that.
Leya Simmons (12:16)
Well, it's great, I mean, what do you think accounts for that? Why is that?
Steven (12:20)
I think that a couple things, there's, I'm gonna do some conjecture here, but there were some other questions that I think point to the answer to that. One question that we asked that doesn't seem connected, but I'm gonna try to connect it to the annual fund is we asked people, hey, what were some of the benefits to the organization besides dollars raised ⁓ to doing the campaign? And the top responses all three years have been around
Leya Simmons (12:42)
interesting.
Steven (12:49)
We think we're better at building major gift relationships, major donor relationships. We think we're better at asking for money in general. And we also have put in place systems at our organizations that didn't exist. So everything from like, you know, we never had a gift acceptance policy.
We never really had sort of a Moos management process. We didn't have a Bequest program before this, and there were tons of things that people could kind of write in to sort of elucidate what they meant by that. Investing in software, right, is a big one for sure. ⁓ Upgrading their CRM, getting well screening. And so that benefits the campaign and was catalyzed by the campaign. But when the campaign ends, and really even before it ends, all those things are going to benefit the other operations of the nonprofit.
And I think that sort of, I don't know if trickle down is the right word, but it impacts the annual fund, right? So that's sort of, that's one of my hypothesis. Another one is just simply the acts of asking for money in a more professionalized sort of personal way, think benefits the annual fund. So one thing that we recommend when people are campaigning is, you know, a lot of times a donor
Leya Simmons (13:41)
Sure.
Steven (14:04)
will be solicited for their campaign gift and then not solicited for the annual fund gift, right? Maybe there's some fear like, we don't wanna ask that person for too much. Exactly. And that is totally not born out in reality. In fact, it can be a little weird on the part of the donor to not be asked for both. right.
Leya Simmons (14:14)
Mini touches.
to have been asked for one, like see it somewhere and not have been asked. I totally
see that, yeah.
Steven (14:31)
It's
a little strange. And so I think that ⁓ as we work through that and all the best practices, even if someone doesn't work with a consultant, I think they would probably ⁓ stumble over this strategy to do both, to say, hey, Leah, we so appreciate your annual support. You keep the lights on. We're so thankful for you. By the way, we have this big, bold vision. We have this urgent need. I'm not a great copywriter, but you can kind of see where I'm going.
Leya Simmons (15:01)
I got
you.
Steven (15:02)
you know, thank, appreciate them for the annual gifts and recognize it, because donors kind of like it when you can kind of illustrate to them what they've done in the past, right? And you're a CRM person, I know I'm preaching to the choir, but, and then, you know, tying that to the additional capital campaign need. And I think that that sort of bolsters the annual funds sort of naturally. And I think the last thing is that
Leya Simmons (15:10)
Think one and then the other.
Steven (15:31)
Capital campaigns are sort of an upgrading exercise, right? You've got people in your CRM that have been given $500 a year, $1,000 a year consistently, but maybe we do a little well screening on them or prospect research and we find, hey, they could be giving five or six figures. So we get that gift and that, they don't always sort of slingshot back to that 500 to $1,000 gift, right? Once you sort of unlock.
Leya Simmons (15:56)
Right, it up, it stays up.
Steven (15:58)
Yeah, exactly. When you unlock ⁓ that giving level, it's sort of the annual fund gift also tends to increase, even if just a little bit. So ⁓ yeah, there's so many benefits to doing a campaign besides just hitting that five or 10 million or whatever you're trying to raise that have very long tail effects on the nonprofit.
Leya Simmons (16:22)
love that. I would have never thought that, it makes perfect sense that honestly just the practice of putting in best practices and then actually doing it over and over again is a ⁓ real benefit. So then what...
Steven (16:31)
Yeah. And without a
campaign, there isn't like a reason, right? Right, right. Right.
Leya Simmons (16:35)
how would you know to do that, right? Exactly, you don't stretch your limits in any way. So then
what do typically, and maybe there is no typical, but what do capital campaigns kind of broadly look like? What's a normal, typical size, dollar amount, length, duration? Yeah, you go.
Steven (16:55)
Going back to my first comment about sort of the wealth inequality, this, what I'm about to say is why I thought that. They tend to be pyramid shaped, right? Now there are some campaigns that are square shaped, sombrero shaped, most are pyramid shaped. And if you're not a pyramid shape, you're not doing anything wrong, right? And in some ways you could sort of argue that, you you're a little more.
you're a little more broad, which is good, right? And you're a little more protected. But you can have a pyramid shape and be protected as long as you're fostering those major gift relationships. But the answer to your question, is pyramid, the Pareto principle, this idea that 80 % of the funding comes from 20 % of the funders, that is really closely aligned to the typical capital campaign.
Leya Simmons (17:48)
Mm.
Steven (17:48)
You know, we
asked people what percentage of your dollars raised came from the top 20 gifts. So it's not quite the Pareto principle definition, but that number was 72%. So 72 % of their goal attainment came from the top 20 gifts. And there weren't a lot of variations that were either pulling that number up or down. You know, there were some corner cases that were maybe a little flatter. And of course there were some campaigns where like,
Leya Simmons (18:01)
⁓ pretty close.
Steven (18:17)
you know, maybe 70 or 80 % of the goal attainment came from one gift right from that lead donor. But in general, you you're trying to raise 5 million, you're probably going to have a million dollar lead gift, you know, 20%, and then maybe a couple 500s and then, you know, three or four 250s and you can kind of see how that flattens out towards the bottom.
⁓ But that's usually what they look like. And if you're listening to this and maybe you're in a campaign or you just finished one and you didn't look like that, that's okay. No judgment, no one's doing anything wrong there. But that sort of average does point to perhaps the need to be fostering some closer relationships, as many close relationships as you can with those high capacity donors.
Leya Simmons (19:09)
Major gift owners. So you described, or you said you've been surprised by that 100 % goal attainment. ⁓ So what then, and you also said, well, maybe we're setting that bar a little bit low. Are there other components to what success could look like?
Steven (19:16)
Yeah.
Maybe.
Yeah, there were some dots that we connected. One that comes to mind is doing a feasibility study. That was sort of ⁓ a glaring one. ⁓ A feasibility study is technically optional, which is one reason that I call it out, because it's something that some people skip, sometimes for good reasons, usually for bad reasons. ⁓ But there were a lot of differences in sort of those
qualitative or actually quantitative results of the study. So we asked people, did you do a study? And then I compared their answers to all the other questions. We also asked people how they did a study. Did you have a third party donor interviewer? Did you do it yourself? And there were some interesting differences there. But in general, I would tell people to skip a feasibility study at your own risk.
Leya Simmons (20:00)
Mm-hmm.
Steven (20:24)
⁓ because it is ostensibly, you know, step one of the solicitation process. You're sort of, talking to potential lead donors, you're socializing your plans, you're kind of getting feedback. It's that old adage of ask for advice, get money versus asking for money, get advice. It's the former, which is what's kind of fun about it. ⁓ That was a big one. Staffing ⁓ also ⁓ didn't point to changes in
Leya Simmons (20:38)
Yep.
Steven (20:53)
success rate necessarily, but did point to the length of a campaign. ⁓ Campaigns tended to drag on longer when there wasn't as much ⁓ investment in staff consultant and also feasibility study was another area where things were kind of dragging out, which sort of, you know, makes sense to me that kind of tracks with our experience as well where, you know, if you don't do a study, you don't test the goal.
Leya Simmons (21:00)
Interesting.
Steven (21:21)
You may get to five million out of a $10 million goal and suddenly get stuck. And then you have to stay in the campaign longer to make up that delta. And then also just plainly, many hands make light work. And you can work through, and we were talking about this before with our businesses, but more is more, right? ⁓ So it's an investment. And sometimes it can be a chicken and the egg because you need to do a lot of work.
Leya Simmons (21:38)
Right, more is more.
Steven (21:50)
in beginning of a campaign before any money starts to come in, which can be hard. ⁓ But the data shows that it is sort of worth it to be taking the load off of your staff people because it is a big lift to do a capital campaign, which is nothing or shattering to the listeners, I'm sure, but just to reinforce that.
Leya Simmons (22:08)
Do you all find that you have, do you see ever that, to use your earlier example, at that five million of a $10 million campaign, I'm stuck, now I'm going to try and bring in a consultant and right the ship? that say, yeah, it happens a lot? Yeah.
Steven (22:21)
yeah, yeah, that's
not in the data, but that is definitely our anecdotal experience. And the hard thing is there's not a lot anyone can do at that point. It's, yeah, it's hard. ⁓
Leya Simmons (22:32)
really, so if you're going to consider that, go in with it.
Steven (22:40)
it's really hard to help those people at that point. Sometimes ⁓ you can always go back to those donors and say, hey, we're having trouble or maybe the costs of the project have inflated. So it sometimes can be a stewardship opportunity for sure. But from a staffing and consulting side, we're not wizards. mean, we're smart people and we wanna help, but ⁓ we can't make $5 million materialize out
Leya Simmons (23:08)
here.
Steven (23:09)
It would have been better if we had tested 10 and it came back at five and it's like, okay, we can do five. Here's what the project will look like at five. ⁓ And then maybe in five to 10 years, we can go back and, you know, and that ⁓ is more likely to be successful, that second campaign, because of all the things we've talked about where the organization grows and kind of levels up through the course of a successful campaign.
regardless of the gift amount.
Leya Simmons (23:39)
Right,
they've got that practice under their belt, they've got the systems in place, and yep. So for a smaller nonprofit that's let's just call it under a million, under a $2 million annual budget, and with limited staff as well, I mean, I know that a lot of them just would assume that, and I know that I did this when I was in those positions, just assuming that capital campaigns aren't for them, what...
Steven (23:42)
Exactly.
Leya Simmons (24:04)
what does your data say? then also, I I always, like the anecdotal part as well. What do you feel about that quote unquote myth or what would you advise any of those nonprofits?
Steven (24:14)
Well, it is a myth. can confirm that it's a myth because we took all 700 responses and I sorted them by their annual revenue size. And so there were hundreds in under a million, which was great to see. So there were enough for me to be like, OK, what's going on with these under a million folks? And that's how we define small shops. That's totally arbitrary. It's just kind of, you you said it too. It's kind of a natural breaking point there. Those folks were just as successful.
Leya Simmons (24:16)
All right.
Steven (24:44)
their success rates were upwards to 95, 96%. Their goal, same exact, their goal attainments were also over 100%. ⁓ What was different was how much they raised. So I think the average amount for the entire data set was like eight or $9 million. But for those under a million orgs, their typical campaigns were like two or 3 million.
Leya Simmons (24:47)
Same exact. Wow.
Steven (25:11)
That's great. And so, you know, my our co-founder, Andrea, my colleague, what she was saying going into the report is there's probably not going to be much of a difference except where the commas are in their goal amounts. And that really I guess that was the commas are the same, but that first number is a little smaller. So I say this to be, you know, encouraging that small shops can do it. All you need is a big vision.
Leya Simmons (25:22)
I like that.
Steven (25:35)
which any organization can have, and actually maybe even smaller shops are more suited for, because they're maybe growing, right? ⁓ And an existing base of support. ⁓ And small shops can have that. So they can do it, they do do it, and there were actually areas where small shops outperformed the rest of the cohort, which is something we don't hear very often. A couple of things come to mind there is the executive director and the board.
Leya Simmons (25:39)
Even bigger, exactly.
Steven (26:03)
tended to be more engaged in fundraising before and during the campaign, which makes sense to me because if it's a small kind of scrappy org, and I would assume that Edie is maybe a founder ⁓ or someone at least who is very passionate about the mission and the same with the board members, not that that can't be true in bigger orgs, but I think it's probably a little more, not maybe even more likely for the smaller orgs. So that was great. So I think the bigger orgs can learn something from that.
Leya Simmons (26:09)
Mm-hmm.
for short.
Steven (26:33)
It also tended to be their first campaign, which is, ⁓ you know, I think what that says is that anyone can do a campaign, right? Especially if you hire help, whether it's staff or consultant or, you know, just seek out, you know, that knowledge and that help in whatever form it is. ⁓ But anyone can do it. So with them being their first campaign, what we saw is
they were putting systems in place for the first time. Rather than upgrading a CRM, they were maybe getting their first CRM or maybe getting their first well-screening tool or whatever. ⁓
Leya Simmons (27:09)
You could also say
that after the campaign, they became an over a million dollar organization and bumped into the next bracket.
Steven (27:15)
I'm sure
you absolutely are. If you're raising two or three million, which was the average and you were barely knocking down the door of a million, you absolutely are for sure. And then if the annual fund grows, which 70, 80 % of the time it does, you're over that. ⁓ you can do it. Absolutely. Absolutely. ⁓ And with capital campaigns, consultants, think, don't like
Leya Simmons (27:31)
That's highly encouraging. That's just thrilling information. Yeah.
Steven (27:42)
us to say this, but we don't mind saying it because we're sort of, ⁓ we're the rogues of the sector, I feel like. There is a playbook to capital campaigns that anyone can follow. You know, there's not a lot of like black magic or anything super secret. And I think sometimes campaign. No, and like if you can and we're happy to like elucidate that playbook for people and empower them.
Leya Simmons (27:58)
So you're not, you're officially not wizards, as you said.
Steven (28:08)
⁓ But some consultants, it's kind of like the Wizard of Oz a little bit where it's like, you know, we'll do it. We know how to do it. We've been doing it for decades and, you know, only us can do it. And you can do it. It's one of the only area, it's one of the only fundraising disciplines where there is sort of ⁓ a playbook that has sort of sequential steps. And sometimes there are variations, of course, but, ⁓ you know, anyone can do it. And size is not a matter.
Leya Simmons (28:32)
But I do have to imagine that
some experience can really help. And like you said, coming in midway, midstream is often too late. I...
Steven (28:37)
It is.
Yeah, although
one thing I have heard people say, Lee, on our team is that, and maybe this speaks to the small shop success, is when you don't have bad capital campaign habits, you're in even better shape. But that's maybe not everybody. But you're right. There are benefits to having gone through it and knowing, OK, we made this mistake last time. We know what to avoid this time. Yeah.
Leya Simmons (29:09)
Sure, that makes a lot of sense. So you spoke about this a minute ago, but I want to come back to it. The donor base, the size of the donor. You said like, all you have to have is the size of a donor. So what about an organization that's like, okay, I've got big vision, but we're still pretty new and I don't know that I have the donor base to support the capital campaign. What is your guidance in that case?
Steven (29:10)
You
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's fair. That's a good question. If you have no individual giving program, right, some organizations are, you know, fee for service or grants or maybe government funded, which is fine, right? It's it might be a little harder. You may have to spend maybe six months, a year or longer establishing an individual giving program. And then the question is, is there a major gift program? You know, are there people that
are not necessarily giving a certain dollar amount, but are maybe giving a dollar amount that is significant to them, right? That is sort of, if there are any prerequisites that maybe we would sort of put our foot down about, I think those are probably it. Although in a capital campaign, grant funding does come into play, foundation giving, grants, and federal funding, and of course, fee for service can help keep the lights on.
Leya Simmons (30:10)
Right.
Steven (30:33)
those revenue sources definitely do come into play but to one of earlier questions of like what do most capital campaigns look like most have ⁓ a significant majority of the funds coming from individuals and usually that that little slice of the pie is a is a small group of people right it's a small group of individuals it's not like a huge crowd ⁓ so there's not necessarily
like a number in the database that I think people have to shoot for. But one thing that may be helpful to hear is, are there people that have been giving to you consistently for many years in a row? Kind of throwing out gift amount just for a second, it doesn't really matter. Like to me, it's more significant. And you know, I'm a database person, so I love this. But like if someone has been giving to you $100 a year,
Leya Simmons (31:14)
Okay.
Steven (31:29)
for five years or more, and maybe also volunteers, or also serves on a committee, or is also a monthly donor. Those signals are where you start to separate, okay, these are the people that we think might be ⁓ major contributors to the campaign. But that five-year donor at like 100 bucks a year, I think is more significant than someone who gave $1,000.
Leya Simmons (31:35)
very engaged.
Steven (31:57)
five years or ten years ago and hasn't given since, even if we know that person to maybe be like really wealthy or whatever. Start with the engagement. Do you have a close group of supporters? Yeah.
Leya Simmons (32:07)
Okay, I
love that and so to that when you are looking at that close group of supporters and maybe don't understand them fully or is it a prerequisite or something that you just highly advise to have ⁓ Well screening tools a donor search or I wave or whatever that is that working for you
Steven (32:26)
Yeah.
It's something that's kind of a good thing to have. wouldn't say like if you don't have it or don't do it, you're toast before you even get started. But it's interesting to look at those long term loyal donors and then sort of level set they're giving compared to where they are giving other places. Right. So if you see a big Delta, they're like, they've been giving us a hundred dollars a year and they're engaged and they like us, but gosh, they're giving
50 grand a year to this other organization in town or elsewhere that kind of looks like us within the same cause type. That's when I think doing the wealth screening kind of shows ROI because the result there is that you would bring that giving to other organizations to yours. And they're probably not giving it that amount because you've never asked. And without a capital campaign or even a major gift program,
there hadn't been a reason to. So it's okay, no one needs to feel bad about that. But that sort of intelligence and also having a CRM to begin with, to be able to identify that person and then well screen them, then you start to, exactly, right. And that's a nice thing about the system, right? ⁓ And that to me is a more fruitful strategy than like, there are a bunch of rich people in our town.
Leya Simmons (33:37)
if they come together like they do every night.
Steven (33:54)
We've never talked to them. They've never shown an interest in our cause. ⁓ Maybe they have through other organizations. That tends to not be as fruitful as sort of those hidden gems in the existing community. And that's why I meant earlier when I said upgrading, you're kind of upgrading those people.
Leya Simmons (34:13)
I mean, that's just incredibly great guidance period in our fundraising ecosystem as well. So we started out talking about like back in 2016, and then we've mentioned the big dips in our economy. How much does timing influence or impact the efforts of a capital campaign like?
Steven (34:17)
in general. Yep.
Leya Simmons (34:31)
And maybe we're not just talking about the economy, but there's also election cycles and maybe we've just done back to back events. So maybe for that one organization, there could be some donor fatigue. What's your guidance around timing?
Steven (34:45)
Yeah.
Well, I think that a couple of things to mind come to mind as we're recording this in mid 26, you know, we haven't really kind of shaken the inflation that we've been experiencing for the last four or five years. So I say that because the longer people wait, the more expensive their project is going to be just period. Right. ⁓ And so if you are maybe observing the landscape and saying,
Maybe now is not a good time, whether you're right or wrong, and you may be right depending on what you're seeing and feeling. If you do indeed pause, the campaign goal is gonna have to be bigger when you unpause it in a year or two years. So that's a consideration for people, right? The cost, yeah, the cost of lumber and steels and nail and labor is gonna be
Leya Simmons (35:29)
⁓ interesting. I see what you're saying. The cost, just the cost of whatever it is you're working to do is going to be higher for sure. Yep. Yep.
Steven (35:39)
And so, and not every campaign has a building project. Some campaigns are purely programmatic or endowment, but most have a building campaign is why I say that. So if that's not you, you can kind of gloss over what I just said and that's fine. The other thing is, and we asked this question, Lee, in the first couple of surveys, know, did you pause for the pandemic? Did you pause because of inflation when it was really hot, right? In 2022 or 23, all the years are just blending together. But most people said no.
I think it was to the tune of like 70 or 80 % of people said, no, we did not pause. And that kind of made me feel good because I feel like, you know, there's never a good time to start, which means it's kind of always a good time to start, right? And again, that may seem a little self-serving coming from someone who wants people to do campaigns, but I do think there is data to back it up. It's going to get more expensive. Yeah.
Leya Simmons (36:30)
That I'm really, yeah,
and I'm surprised by that a little bit as well, just because in 22 and 23 was our last stock market dip. didn't go down very much, but that does impact those higher, yeah, so interesting.
Steven (36:43)
those high value donors, for sure.
And I think there is, you know, there is typically sometimes three to 12 months of work before you start soliciting gifts, you know, to kind of get your case for support ⁓ lined up and, you know, define the project costs. So if someone were to start today, you know, on June 2nd, 2026, it's probably going to be a few months before you're actually even soliciting donors. ⁓
And sometimes people are maybe surprised by some of that work you need to do in the beginning. So that's maybe another reason to get started is there's just kind a lot of homework to do, which is maybe not exciting. People kind of want to be excited and go ask for don't talk to donors about it, which is good. But usually that's a few months into the process and there's a lot of work to be done there. So, again, the longer you wait, you're just sort of delaying the checks coming in.
Leya Simmons (37:41)
It's always the boring stuff that moves the needle, isn't it? Well, so I mean, I that I'm so applicable to everything. what did you look at and you keep being very kind and, and, know, waving a flag when you're like, I know this is self-serving and so forth, but did you look in your data and your research at all at a comparison of those that hired a consultant, somebody like a capital campaign pro versus those that didn't and how they fared.
Steven (37:43)
I know, in all facets of life.
You
Yep, the results weren't as drastic as maybe we wanted to, right? But where there were were the length of the campaign. And that's okay, but it's good to call it out. That was the big standout. there are a lot of ⁓ causation isn't... ⁓
Leya Simmons (38:13)
Did you hope to?
that's right. mentioned that.
Mm-hmm.
Steven (38:31)
or correlation isn't always causation, but that was just sort of an interesting thing that was very clear in the data. ⁓ So I don't want to totally ignore it because I think there probably was a little bit of a correlation there. ⁓ But, you know, there's a lot of different types of help that people can get. So...
You know, one thing I want to do in the next survey is maybe kind of drill down into, okay, you know, what kind of consultant, what did they do for how long to just get a kind of a better answer to your question. But the link, but to answer it, was the, the, campaigns tend to drag on longer without sort of that expert guide along their side. Yeah.
Leya Simmons (39:08)
Mm-hmm.
So you also mentioned then the staff that's that, know, if there were more staff, they did better and those campaigns were shorter. What does the staff look like ⁓ at a I don't know if there's a typical version or maybe like maybe for a smaller organization and then also for larger ones.
Steven (39:24)
Yeah.
Yep.
Yeah.
It's interesting, going back to what we were talking about with the small orgs. It's usually an ED and a fundraising person, right? It's a development person, a large organization, maybe it's a head of advancement or a chief development officer. But even orgs above a million, five, 10 million organizations, we're usually talking to an ED and a dedicated fundraising person. And that's...
Leya Simmons (39:59)
Okay.
Steven (40:02)
There isn't always a clear ⁓ correlation between the size of the org and the size of the staff, right? You can have a somewhat new organization that has those two people and they're raising one or $2 million a year versus a long standing established organization that is raising five or $10 million a year and still just those two people. So I think maybe just time and existence helps with that a little bit.
But, and I think that's one reason why the small shops were just as successful. It's not because they were outstaffed by the bigger orgs. I actually think that it's because they were closer to their donors just by nature of them being smaller and newer. And, you know, also being their first campaign, them really kind of taking the steps to make sure that this is gonna be successful. So, ⁓
Leya Simmons (40:32)
yeah, probably.
Steven (40:57)
Yeah, that's usually what it is. what we so I guess to really answer your question is where we see additional staffing beyond those two people, really beyond the fundraising person is to sort of offload the non campaign tasks, right? Because if you're if you're doing the campaign and doing a feasibility study and all these things, you need help with like the gala. And yeah, and all the and like getting the newsletter out every week or every month.
Leya Simmons (41:13)
Okay.
pulls a lot of further.
Steven (41:26)
That is where we see, that's what we see the staff doing rather than bringing in a staff member to do the campaign, if that makes sense. Because...
Leya Simmons (41:36)
It does. So
you and I as technologists, do you see a bump if they've got a database administrator or an IT specialist involved?
Steven (41:46)
That we don't I don't often see that role. ⁓ And we we actually we to be fair, we didn't granularly ask like, what are all the the roles? And yeah, but I would like to. mean, I think that's actually a good idea, because it would be interesting to see if that was if that if that was a difference. But anecdotally, when I think of like our 80 or so clients that were helping at any given time. ⁓
Leya Simmons (41:54)
but maybe pretty specific.
Steven (42:11)
and we serve organizations from a million to a hundred million dollars in terms of their campaign goal. ⁓ It's usually just the ED and the head of fundraising and maybe one other. It's great. Yeah, it's great. And I think that also speaks to like there's a playbook. Anyone can follow it. Anyone can do it as long as you've got that vision and that support. ⁓ Yeah, you don't need. Yeah, you don't need to bring in a whole cavalcade of people necessarily. ⁓
Leya Simmons (42:21)
That's great to know.
Steven (42:39)
because it usually comes down to 40 or 50 gifts, right? ⁓ That make the difference and that requires one-on-one attention, usually with the ED or whoever holds a relationship and stewardship and time. Yeah, yeah.
Leya Simmons (42:55)
And a lot of, yeah.
So do you, do you advise, and if you do what, to what level advise ⁓ securing gifts before you officially launch a capital
Steven (43:10)
Oh,
yeah. Yeah, I love this question. absolutely. So I think kind of the rule of thumb is, you know, a 70 to 80 % goal attainment before going public. Now, the public versus private or quiet phase is a little bit of a misnomer because people are going to know about the the pro. Yeah, you're out asking
Leya Simmons (43:13)
Okay.
You're out asking.
Steven (43:36)
There might be construction happening, right? You can't hide a bunch of bulldozers or whatever or moving vans. What we like to say to people is the campaign stays quiet. The project doesn't have to stay quiet. So ⁓ what you really want to keep quiet is the goal number and the attainment. Like think of the thermometer. You don't want to put a thermometer out in front of your building that starts at 0%.
Leya Simmons (43:49)
Okay.
Steven (44:02)
You put the thermometer out when you've got it filled to 70 or 75. That's very motivating to people who haven't given like, oh, wow, they're doing this big project and look how much support they already have. And they're almost there. My gift will make a difference, even if it's only $50, $100, $1,000, which I know is a lot of money to people, including me. But I mean, to belittle those gifts. But you can see where the public phase becomes a lot of people kind of chipping in to get that thermometer from the top.
But think the other reason, which I feel like doesn't get talked about very often or not enough, is that if you go public before bringing in those very close supporters in on the project, you might alienate them, right? Yeah, they might be upset. And I'm not saying like, you know, see total control over the campaign to that group of supporters. That's not what I'm saying. But like, again, that that adage of ask for advice, get money.
Leya Simmons (44:49)
Yeah, they might be upset.
Steven (45:02)
That's why you keep it ⁓ quiet to the beginning until you've talked to those 50 or 100 people or whatever who are really gonna get that thermometer mercury up close to 80%. ⁓ But I've talked to people where they come to me and it's like, we broke ground and we wanna start a campaign, are we screwed? Did we do it wrong? I'm like, it's okay, we can work with that as long as you haven't.
put on your website that you're at $0 instead of a $10 million goal. That's really kind of the killer. So it's not quite quiet. It's a little bit of a misnomer, kind of like feasibility is a little bit of a misnomer of a name. But really, it's the goal attainment number that really needs to stay quiet, most of all.
Leya Simmons (45:47)
So in your three to 12 months of advanced work, is that three to 12 months before soft asks begin or those pre-ask?
Steven (45:54)
can be,
it can be. Usually that three to 12 months includes the feasibility study. ⁓ And usually there isn't ⁓ a formal ask in that process. Although sometimes if the conversation is like going really well and it can turn into that, but usually doesn't, you you're just sort of socializing the idea and kind of getting a ballpark. ⁓ So, you you could say that, you know, that is sort of step zero of the solicitation process, depending on how you want to define it.
Leya Simmons (46:00)
Mm-hmm.
Sure.
Steven (46:24)
⁓
But I think you could be asking for money by nine months, 12 months, 15 months, 16 months of the process. It doesn't have to be this very far out thing. Yeah.
Leya Simmons (46:39)
Okay, all right, so
if we've got somebody listening right now that's thinking about a campaign in the next, because we know we need some time, so 18, 24 months, right? ⁓ What are a couple of the benchmarks from this report that they need to be really focusing on? What are your primary takeaways they need to pay attention to?
Steven (46:48)
Yeah.
I think the fact that 72 % of the goal attainment comes from the top 20 gifts. I think that really should illuminate to people that this is going to be probably a major gift effort. Now, some organizations, it's a little flatter, like we said, and that's fine. But I think they're the exception versus the rule. So I think the question is, if somebody is listening and they're pondering a $5 million campaign,
Leya Simmons (47:22)
Mm-hmm.
Steven (47:30)
The real sort of soul searching question is, do we have people in our community or in our orbit, wherever you want to say, that could give a six or seven figure gift? And if the answer is yes, and you can compile a list of names, you're good. Like you can start. ⁓ If the answer is not sure, okay, maybe we'll do a little work. Maybe we do a little more work in the database, like you said before.
And if maybe we do that work and, we're not sure those people are there, then I think the tension turns like, well, maybe we should spend some time really establishing a major GIF motion. And that can transition very smoothly and directly into the campaign work. It doesn't have to be like that happens and then there's a stop and then the campaign starts. can kind of ⁓
Leya Simmons (48:26)
We hit a pre-goal
goal, then a goal goal, then a... Sure.
Steven (48:28)
Yeah, it flows into it. ⁓
And, and, know, that, that and since most campaigns start with a feasibility study, the rubber really hits meets the road. It's like, are there 40 people that we can talk to in a study? Are there 40 close supporters or people we want to be close supporters with capacity, but but most importantly, affinity for what we do. And that is usually where there's sort of a fork in the road. Can we can we create
And we call it a depth chart. Everyone calls it a depth chart in every consultant. But you know, is that that that list of 40 or 50 names? That's sort of this the soul searching question. Yep.
Leya Simmons (49:07)
I love it. All right, so I kind
of asked my usual last question, second to last, which is what should you go do tomorrow? So I hear that one. I hear that answer. What about because we've talked about headwinds and economic inequalities and all of the things, what in this data actually, or frankly, you can take this much more broadly if you'd like to, Stephen, what makes you feel optimistic about the nonprofit sector right now?
Steven (49:11)
Okay.
Yeah.
Oh, I think, you know, it probably won't surprise people to hear, you know, that the goal attainment was over 100 % and that the satisfaction rate was 75%. That's kind of a cop-out answer. And I think the small shop thing is also a good sign. And then I also think one thing is that, you know, people continue to take the survey. The data set grows every year.
Leya Simmons (49:40)
Yeah.
really good.
Steven (50:04)
And I talked about this really early on, but it's really fun to see people who took the survey three years ago, take it every year and update their numbers. And also the people who start a new campaign. That is really cool to see. that, you know, we talked a little bit about donor fatigue, people going right into the next campaign. ⁓ And maybe they should have done it all together. I mean, I don't know the details of every single story, but that makes me feel.
good about the state of things for sure. And also the fact that they were outliers, that they were people that sort of bucked some of the common wisdom that I've been talking about, who they had a lot of people giving mid-level gifts to hit the campaign. That's good too. Yeah.
Leya Simmons (50:38)
love that.
That's really good. Yeah, that's great to know.
And I was very encouraged by just that natural growth of a small organization running a capital campaign and then bumping themselves up into the ⁓ demographic group or group of our, I guess, economic grouping that we assign. ⁓ Steven, thank you. Thank you for doing this work. Thank you for the research.
Steven (51:08)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Sure. thanks. Thanks for having me.
Leya Simmons (51:16)
Of course,
no, I love it. It's fascinating and like, you know, really, truly encouraging. Not everything we talk about on the balance sheet drop is. But I wanted to go ahead and put up your information. If you have questions for Stephen, Stephen at CapitalCampaignPro.com. When we send out this recording, or if you're watching the recording in the notes, we will link you to the report so you can see it with no strings attached, as Stephen has promised.
Steven (51:25)
No.
Leya Simmons (51:45)
If you've got questions for me, I'm Leah, L-E-Y-A at betterunite.com. are also, Steven, I don't know if I mentioned this to you, but we are also a podcast. So some folks might be only hearing the audio. Again, take a look at show notes and all of this information is in there.
Steven (51:54)
Yeah.
That's
good, I got a face for radio, that might be better.
Leya Simmons (52:01)
No, that's not true.
But I did have to like slow the first time I listened to myself on podcasts. I was like, wow, note to self slow it down. And maybe get a little closer to the mic and maybe be a little less animated in the beginning because it's very jarring when I come in full force at the beginning of some of these. And if I did that today, because now I can't remember, apologies to you all if you've made it this far. ⁓ And then let me ⁓ promote my webinar next week on my webinar.
Steven (52:09)
Yeah, in the same way.
Leya Simmons (52:30)
I get to do this. ⁓ Your event is just the beginning, turning moments into movements. Steven, you mentioned that I'm a CRM person. am, but I would really call myself a moves management person, and that has married to my experience in Better Unites work with events. we love talking about...
Steven (52:38)
Ooh, yeah.
Leya Simmons (52:51)
how you can take the momentum that you and the motion and all of the excitement that you have garnered and worked for and frankly paid for with your event and turn that into longer term relationships, much more stewarding. It really should just be the beginning. So I have an entire presentation on this. I actually just did it last week at the Virtuous Summit. So come join me next week.
Steven (53:12)
nice.
Leya Simmons (53:13)
Tuesday, June 9th at 1.30 Central Always. If you are looking at my screen, you can scan that QR code and register right away. And of course, if you have not yet seen Better Unite, which we really did not talk about, but Better Unite does have CRM, Moves Management, and Well Screening all in a single place, plus all of your event tools. There's my one promo. You're marketing, I hope you're happy with me. ⁓ Please scan that QR code for a demo or also email support at betterunite.com.
⁓ Stephen, again, thank you so much. I really appreciate it. This was super fun and frankly just fascinating. I did not expect some of those results.
Steven (53:45)
Anytime.
Yeah, and our food buy, this is fun. Thanks for having me.
Leya Simmons (53:50)
I love it. I knew it really did. Thank you so
much, Stephen. Thank you everybody for joining us. Have an incredible day and let's all go do some good.